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Message started by IkkiAbaki on 08/17/11 at 16:54:12

Title: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by IkkiAbaki on 08/17/11 at 16:54:12

Hello trading enthusiasts!

Is anyone aware of a forum/market to sell trading ideas?  Internet searches do not bring up anything in this space.  Does it mean there is no demand and supply of it?

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 08/21/11 at 10:26:21

Are trying to find a place to sell your trading ideas?

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by IkkiAbaki on 08/21/11 at 14:58:05

Potentially, long-term.  At this point, just interested if such market exists and how it works.

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 08/29/11 at 00:56:16

How did you test your trade ideas?

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by IkkiAbaki on 08/29/11 at 12:23:09

I implement the algorithm and run it against historical data

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by I like Rothbard on 09/15/11 at 01:37:52

no one wants to buy ideas..most are too skeptical...they want to see your account records...if they see they positive returns then you will be able to get people to listen. People like to hear some fundamentals absed logic behind the algorithm...but if you show + returns with real money you will get interested parties to shares profits with you...doubtful you'll ever find anyone just give you cash for an idea. :'(

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 09/15/11 at 06:08:14

Does it not make sense? If the author is not prepared to risk money invested in his/her own idea, why would anyone else?

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by speedmon on 09/17/11 at 23:51:52

Ikki,
The other two gentlemen are correct. To most people...a successful algo can only be measured by the REAL profit it produces over time. I can optimize an algo for history, but that would be rigged, not real.

I can also say from experience that its more profitable to run your algo in-house than it is to sell it. Most professionals will want to just steal the concept anyway and that is difficult to prevent during the due diligence process of a sale.

I own an engineering firm and we build algo software for all sorts of folks who have all sorts of wacky ideas.....But our inhouse stuff that works...that really works, I would never sell.....why?...because its a perpetual money machine and thats invaluable.

I'm always open to new ideas, I do pay for them,  and I don't need a P&L. I just need the concept described and I'll tell you if I'm interested. If I'm interested you tell me how much you want for it and if we can agree on a price then you can show me the detail......

Post your email or something or send me a PM and we'll see if you have something that might work.


I wish this site were more popular.



Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 09/18/11 at 06:51:56

Speedmon,

I like your comments. This site will naturally become popular if it has more members like you.

Selling shovels during the gold rush is a very pragmatic approach. I am glad that you have found the strategies that work for you and your company. Selling them would not make any sense from my perspective.

Perhaps you could share some of your experience in building your own firm with the other members of the forum.

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by speedmon on 09/19/11 at 18:47:39

Sure.....
Sorry for lurking for a long time and not posting but I think its hard to understand what I could contribute.

My experience in building the firm......I supply resources to institutions who want to automate or augment their trading. Its a service company much like any other. Its a very cut-throat industry as designs and code are easily stolen and security is always a large concern.

You'd be amazed at how much money folks throw at wacky ideas and how long they are willing to lose money before they change.....but just look at hedge fund profits this year....some are down 40%.

On the algo design side.......advice? Be less concerned with tech and more with the algo rules and profitability. And data aggregation is just as important as the algo rules.

For example, one of our most profitable "programs" has computer gen'd signals but manual execution of orders because the exchange does not allow computer gen'd orders with that instrument.

Good Luck!

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by cjforex on 09/22/11 at 06:31:23

There are also some algorithms that are "thin" in that based on their volatility and return rate require larger funds and infrastructure to generate profit from. I always come across algos like that in my own personal development. I just label them thin, and move on.

In other words, they work, I just can't afford to trade them.

I know of a friend that specializes in them, and was forced to partner with someone to implement them.

So putting up your own money is the logical option, but not always a choice.

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 09/23/11 at 13:20:02

Thank you for your comments, speedmon.

The function of the folks with "wacky" ideas is to provide liquidity and help the price discovery process. They must enjoy the thrill of trading as well.

"Win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market. Some people seem to like to lose, so they win by losing." -- Ed Seykota

I agree with your comments on the importance of the rules, their profitability (supported by a rigorous back-testing process) and the quality of the data. Fancy tech can wait until the core strategies are selected and deployed.


speedmon wrote on 09/19/11 at 18:47:39:
Sure.....
Sorry for lurking for a long time and not posting but I think its hard to understand what I could contribute.

My experience in building the firm......I supply resources to institutions who want to automate or augment their trading. Its a service company much like any other. Its a very cut-throat industry as designs and code are easily stolen and security is always a large concern.

You'd be amazed at how much money folks throw at wacky ideas and how long they are willing to lose money before they change.....but just look at hedge fund profits this year....some are down 40%.

On the algo design side.......advice? Be less concerned with tech and more with the algo rules and profitability. And data aggregation is just as important as the algo rules.

For example, one of our most profitable "programs" has computer gen'd signals but manual execution of orders because the exchange does not allow computer gen'd orders with that instrument.

Good Luck!


Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 09/23/11 at 13:33:59

I call them "borderline" strategies. Some of them are widely employed. Because of the relatively high proportion of transaction costs and urge to be "accurate", have superior returns and high Sharpe ratio (typically due to a sampling error), many algorithmic traders and hedge fund managers employ high leverage. Majority of such endeavours implode due to the negative skewness of returns specific to the "borderline" strategies.

The short-term alpha provided by the "borderline" can, however, be useful in market-making strategies complementing the positive edge of the spread.


cjforex wrote on 09/22/11 at 06:31:23:
There are also some algorithms that are "thin" in that based on their volatility and return rate require larger funds and infrastructure to generate profit from. I always come across algos like that in my own personal development. I just label them thin, and move on.

In other words, they work, I just can't afford to trade them.

I know of a friend that specializes in them, and was forced to partner with someone to implement them.

So putting up your own money is the logical option, but not always a choice.


Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by speedmon on 09/23/11 at 21:29:58

I think the point I was trying make was......it is far easier to find MONEY than it is to find a successful algo.

And if you have a successful algo.....your own money will multiply geometrically...because what you can do with 1 dollar you can do with 10.....just add a zero and another and another.

Once you sell it or expose it to a "partner" you end up limiting your revenue and increasing your risk of loss......


Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by Algo Designer on 09/23/11 at 22:41:18

That makes perfect sense!

Title: Re: Where to sell trading ideas?
Post by speedmon on 09/24/11 at 02:03:57

Don't get me wrong, I'm not negative on collaboration (partnership), I've just never been in one that really worked.....equally.....so here is what I do when folks want to give me money and this is what did when I needed money and knew I had something that worked.

I have people loan me the money (legally with documents) at a low interest rate like 6%. To trade futures like we do here you dont need much, ES margin is like 5K and NQ is 3.5K (hint!). We run the money through the machine and split the profit 60/40. They get the WOW type return and because its a loan, I have NO regulatory issues or commitment to performance. And they never see the tech or even a statement. No prepays and if they want their money back, I require a 30 day notice.....no biggie....but thats not a problem.

If you have an Algo that works and want to protect it, this business model works. The interest on 1 ES contract is $25 per month....or two ticks.....The question is always how much money do you need?


But..... if you bring me a successful algo I will pay you money.
Here is the profile of what I like.
1. Futures based
2. Momentum based
3. Must employ some type of risk management(no wait and hope)
4. Should yield at least 15% per month, cash on cash...so for es that would be $750.....15 points. On a 20 day month that would be .75 points per day.....Sounds easy? Its rare.
I will look at a lesser yields, but risk should be really low then.

Even if you don't have a P&L but think you're on the brink of a major breakthrough....I'll look at it....

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